Talk:Wonsulsa/@comment-26484417-20151130164922/@comment-26484417-20151204071051

@Demotivator: If you remove the "control" element from the example of flattening, you must also remove this "control" element from the example of circulation... result? Both are useless. If you leave the "control" element in both of them, then the flattening has an edge in the real world, while I suppose you could consider them equal in the fantasy world...

I took the liberty of revisiting the chapter where Viole and Love fight. The "ball" and its formation are almost identical to what Ho does to impress Baam in the Wave Controller class on 2F. Ran's "technique preparation" ball appears to be far more special than what Love formed. However, you can see there is a circle (halo) at the root of the beam that looks like a recoil ring. There are two possible explanation for this: (i) Either it's merely a recoil effect (much like effects around Laure), in which case there is no indication of anything (= no overall indication Beam Cannon is Wonsulsa technique)... Or (ii) it's the sign of a Wonsulsa technique (much like with Pitch Changeup), which means I was wrong, and the Beam Cannon is indeed Wonsulsa technique (with or without the "ball"). However, this would also be a confirmation the Wonsulsa techniques work precisely in the way I described. In other words, it's increasing penetrating power through introducing rotation / circulation of the attack, no matter how you phrase it... Which unfortunately also means that there is no apparent connection to Blue Oar technique, and while people can speculate whether it is or isn't a Wonsulsa technique, there is no supporting evidence for the people who wish to leave it on the list.

Both of these questions can be googled, both the point I was making about spheres / circles (no, the direction is not the issue), and the effect of construct weakening as it's it's made larger and thinner... As for the rest, the Blue Oar technique may be more durable than it looks, but this indicates nothing, one way or the other... I never said it's fragile, after all, he learned it from a Ranker, so it should be better than what average Regulars use (Fast Skip was Viole-exlusive until Hell Train, so maybe in another ~20 floors there will be Regulars with techniques equal to Blue Oar)... Laure's shield may or may not be stronger if it were Wonsulsa technique, but we don't even know if the mechanics of Wonsulsa techniques are compatible with this type of shield.

You mentioned something like this before. You suggest that Pitch Changeup is actually the "less complicated" Wonsulsa technique among the listed ones, right? If that were true, Love's reaction and "thoughts" would be a contradiction. He saw Viole copy his Blue Oar (according to what you say, the more "difficult" Wonsulsa technique), yet he was quite confident that Viole will be unable to copy his Pitch Changeup (the less complicated Wonsulsa technique)... Do you see the problem with this interpretation?

By the way, since the foundation of your disagreement is based on the word "strength" in the definition, it should be noted that while one reference for the definition uses "strength", the other one uses "power"... So maybe the original text actually uses the ambiguous word like "힘" that can be translated as either "power" or "strength"... or maybe the translation already includes someone's interpretation... At the very least, it's worth confirmation.

I wonder about this, because your arguments are clearly a justification approach. This is not an offence, it's merely categorises the approach. Basically, you take the definition and Love's techniques in front of you, and try to devise an interpretation of this definition that fits the techniques. This is a very difficult job when you don't know for a fact that all techniques are meant to fit the description. Some of the paragraphs above demonstrate why this is not working, if you insist on one, you're losing the other, then there is the contradiction surrounding your last paragraph, etc etc... On the other hand, I'm forming challenging arguments. It's much simpler job, because the point is made the moment I show a flaw in any component. Right now, there are (potential) flaws in all components, the phrasing of the description (pending confirmation), the interpretation (we know this is someone's subjective interpretation of the definition, so its reliability is in question by default), and not all listed techniques fit the current interpretation, so there is clearly something wrong. If it turns out the interpretation can be improved and solidified (based on whether the original actually says "strength", "power", or either one), then it should be more clear which techniques belong and which don't, and why.

This is because the connection between "circulation", "perfect circle", and "strength" (in the sense of structural change, as you describe) is an improvisation... It's not based on anything that has been described in the story thus far or that exists in the real world. Naturally, this doesn't make it wrong, it's a fantasy universe, but if the word "strength" turns out to be interchangeable with the word "power", then it suddenly turns into description of an existing concept, which can easily take precedence.

I apologise for the really long post, it is my last in this thread. If I haven't convinced you with this, I can hardly hope to convince you with anything more. So I hope that (i) you are convinced by now, and (ii) that I'm actually right, otherwise convincing you is not a good thing... =)