Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-23.243.83.197-20140707011600/@comment-5693502-20141220025012

Well, first and foremost, let my commend you for actually putting up a decent fight in favour of your argument; I do enjoy a good debate. I won't lie, you've solidly backed me into some corners on quite a few points hahaha. Also I'll say now, any of your points that I don't mention or don't challenge you on means that I had no way of replying.

Fair enough, Rachel's the character everyone loves to hate. I personally cannot find it in myself to hate a character based simply on their morals or actions (regardless of how "good" or "evil" they may be). The only reason I'd hate a character is if they're generic, boring or have a lack of creativity in them. But yes I agree: we both wanted Rachel to stay in the series, we both wanted her to have an even bigger role as antagonist or anti-hero, we both wanted her to have even more screen-time (or frame-time, or whatever). I can happily concede that other people's reactions towards hating her are well-placed and I'll also concede that most would consider evil. But me personally, I just can't see it. Not outright anyway. When I try to picture what I really think of as evil (fictionally anyway), I think of Kid Buu. Brain won't let me go into why I think that but yeah, that's what's in my head. I digress...

Anyway I see Rachel as more of a well-intentioned extremist. She wants to achieve a simple, pretty harmless dream and she's currently prepared to do anything to get there.

Oh no, I never said she shouldn't take responsibility I just said that Headon was mostly to blame for her corruption. Unless you start out corrupted in the first place (which Rachel didn't) you don't just spontaneously become corrupt overnight. Something or someone pushes you to become corrupt whether intentionally or not. She jumped into the Tower and Headon says, "You weren't chosen"; that was the first domino that fell. She sees Baam take the test and go up; that was the second domino that fell. Dominos are falling and we have a knock on effect; the start of Rachel's corruption. Rachel's pretty human emotions are now clouding her innocent dreams. Headon then goes and propagates her increasing corruption by making her a deal knowing full well she was never going to refuse it. Like I said above, Rachel really wants to see the stars and she's willing to do anything to get there. Baam unintentionally was the start of her descent into corruption, Headon propagated massively and FUG are indirectly helping her along the way. I will defend Rachel on that first test. Had Yuri not arrived, Baam would not have passed that test; the eel would've killed him 99.9% of the time. Had Rachel attempted Baam's method of passing the test, she would've died 99.9% of the time since she had no weapon. Considering everything she had on her (i.e. nothing) how the hell was she meant to pass Headon's test ? Fair enough, she didn't have the courage to actually try but think about it. If you were in her position with no weapons, no fighting experience and little in terms of physical capabilities and then some creature tells you to evade a monster and pop a ball would you take that first step ? Courage and bravery are admirable traits sure, but too much and you'll end up dead; you also need to know when to suppress that courage think about situations logically. Rachel's decision that day was pretty rational if you ask me: "Insurmountable challenge with an overwhelmingly high chance of death? If I die now, how will I see the stars? I won't do it." I'll give Baam credit, he was going to take that test come hell-or-high water. But still, the kid was no naive about the world that he probably didn't even know what danger was; to him it was just another nameless obstacle for him to pass. It's like telling a naive child, that knows no better, to jump off a cliff if they want those sweets they really like. Chances are the child's gonna do it. Achievements in ignorance indeed.

Anyway back on topic, to sum up on Rachel's corruption. I'm not saying Baam ever has or is actively trying to corrupt Rachel, I'm saying he unintentionally causes the first step of her corruption to take place. Headon then propagated it (intentional or not, I'm not sure) by offering her the deal and FUG are indirectly propagating her corruption by doing what they're doing.

Rachel blames Baam for inadvertently taking her dream away from her. When you kill or steal someone's dream (even if by accident), that hurts a lot. That's your sense of purpose shattered. The result: Rachel hates Baam just as much as everyone hates Rachel. And when you hate someone that much, they repulse you. You don't want anything to do with that person.

It might have been the deal Headon offered, who knows. But tell me, how do you betray one of the most experienced beings in the Tower when you sitting on his Floor ? I see her decision as desperate, not evil. She saw a way for her shattered, stolen dream to be reclaimed and she took it no questions asked. Her decision that day will probably burn her in the future but for now, well, karma isn't coming for her yet.

Ahhhh, you want to delve into my morals ? Not a good idea hahahaha, my morals are complicated. What do I think of as evil ? For me the ultimate evil would be forcing someone to do something that is strictly against their morals. Maybe I'm desensitised to it all but no I don't find any of that to be "evil" enough for me. The worst of those offences you mentioned would be her maiming of Dan's legs but only because it seems like she let her emotions go to her head and let the red mist descend; a lack of self-control if you will. Well in the eyes of the common person, yes a good person is "good" because they're resistant to evil or corruption.

It does require a lot of effort yes. Though I would separate "remaining good" and "retaining your ideals" since I see them as two different entities. Has she remained good ? In the morally objective books, no she has not. Has she retained her ideals ? Since we don't know what ideals she had in the first place, that answer is unknown. A person may retain all their ideals and turn from good to evil and vice-versa. Nope, never repeated that. I doubt any of them were put in the same situation Rachel was in. I'd like to see what they'd do and how they'd turn out if they had been put in her exact shoes.

My apologies for not being clear enough the first time but with my statement "why exert yourself if you can do the exact same thing using an easier method" I would not consider it lazy if the method used is more efficient. For example: Sure you could sweep a floor using a broom but why sweep the floor with a broom when you can just vacuum it ? Vacuuming is obviously the easier more efficient method. But is vacuuming lazier ? I will not mention your cheating example as it is no longer relevant. Yes, it is very true that one trains to prepare themselves for future challenges. You say that Rachel never did any training of any sort during those 5-6 years, but how sure are you of that claim ? Do you explicitly know everything Rachel did in those 5-6 years ? Are you sure that she might not have done a little practising when Koon was out or when his team was doing a test ? Are you sure she might not have had secret training sessions with the FUG teammates implanted in Koon's former team ? Nowhere is it said that Rachel sat on her arse, all day every day quietly for 5-6 years doing jack shit. Who knows, she could be a prodigy in a certain skill. I doubt it, but there's a chance.

Does she take a special delight in managing to make slavish fools of everyone around her ? Where does it say that ? If I've missed a chapter with that in, forgive me, but I can't remember that ever being stated or implied. Creepy laugh plus a little dance... evil ? No. A little twisted or slightly deranged ? Maybe.

We agree on another thing, deviousness is a very good character trait. Koon is a favourite of mine also. Anyway, before I digress further...

Well sure, FUG probably played a large part in that but Rachel obviously had to do her bit too. She knows Koon better than FUG does. Yeah all we saw Rachel do was her same old routine. I wonder if that's all she did.

Well I'm not sure right now, since we still haven't really seen Rachel do much yet. She appears here and there and then is gone before you know it. If she plays a larger role in the Hell Train arc, my opinions may change. Hahahahaha I like that comparison but I never actually stated she was a manipulative genius, I just said she uses manipulation and deceit to get by. Well we haven't seen her do anything on panel yet. Who knows what she's done behind the scenes.

Hehehehe yes I like to take people to pieces when I start debating with them http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/maoyu/images/e/e4/Evil.gif http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/maoyu/images/e/e4/Evil.gif

Well, you got me there. Definition wise, you got me. His quiet unassuming persona doesn't fit with the usual "charismatic" types. I feel ashamed at missing that hahahaha.

My bad there, that stems from my reply to another person. Whether she is redeemable depends on whether she's passed the moral event horizon (I am a troper and I think in tropes hahahaha). If she's passed it, there's no turning back. If she pulls a heel-face turn, who knows what might happen but I find that unlikely. To be honest, I've never really checked popularity polls, they don't interest me. Well Baam and Rachel haven't done anything yet and the only group that knows they exist are FUG and the people they met on the 2nd Floor. Well I am struggling to come up with a good retort there; when you equate it to real life like that, I am slightly lost as how to reply (not to mention I've completely lost my train of thought...)

Oh I'm well aware of how destructive it could potentially be if you emulated Rachel in real life, I just find it interesting to see in a fictional setting. I wouldn't call myself completely pro-Rachel, but I do like to debate in her corner, it's fun :P

Hahahahahahahaha that might be a wise decision ;)