Talk:Twenty-Fifth Baam/Abilities and Powers/@comment-47.138.224.21-20170115063141/@comment-6166034-20170118235022

@Athanos

My interpretation of your example was that you wanted to say : "we can say front crowl is swimming" because if nothing "a swimming style" allows for the result: moving in the water (i.e. swimming), which is true. Now tell me how it's "beside" what you were saying.

However I pointed out that your equivalents with shinsoo manipulations were wrong.

" The interpretation of the example, can be either "I swim in the water using style XY (e.g., breaststroke, just random hand and leg movement, etc.), but I cannot float on my own, so I need the floating-aid" or "I swim in the water using style XY, and I need no aid". I suspect everything else should be clear."

So with your "semantic" you like to placate everywhere, you use "using", which has the same causal link as my "because".

Your definition was therefore : "Swimming(objective) using "style", provided the first separation" provided=requiring right ?

My rebutal stands.

" it would merely mean that he subconsciously used one way of controlling Shinsoo without contract, while now he's learnt another way of controlling Shinsoo consciously; one way or the other, the level below Shinwonryu shouldn't be "control Shinsoo without contract", it should be either "no control of Shinsoo whatsoever", or--in case we're not discussing merely the act of controlling but also intention--"subconscious control of Shinsoo"."

And that's why I complemented my examples with Urek Mazino, who we know ALWAYS used shinsoo without contract "consciously"! and when he stopped Horyang and Prince from escaping, he didn't use shinwonryu, since nothing was sucked neither exploded (I can't be so sure about when he desintegrated the rankers after Zygena however). Meaning : I don't know if there's a point of making a distinction between "conscious" or "unconscious" manipulation/control without contract, but there's DEFINITLY "control shinsoo without contract", and the shinwonryu is a style, part, technique, subset of this great group, since "you can manipulate shinsoo without contract outside of shinwonryu" however according to GoG "You need to manipulate shinsoo without contract to use shinwonryu".